[shannobananno]

Hello all. I am new to this forum. I have recently undergone 2nd IVF which looks like another failure. Before this second IVF, I looked into adoption (domestic and international; infant and older) and we simply can't afford it. The reason why we were able to do IVF again is because it was free due to the fact that I donated half of my eggs. I will not be chosen for this again. I've also looked into both becoming a foster parent and adoption through the state. However, where I live, its done through the county and as I live in a very wealthy county, there are virtually no children in need of adoption or foster parents.

Our infertility is male-factor only. Therefore, we could spend just a couple hundred dollars and use donor sperm. This would be so incredibly easy compared to the hell I've experienced with IVF. However, my husband won't allow it. Its his freakin' ego! He doesn't want me having a child "with another man." He is absolutely against it. I am starting to get really bitter. If his ego is the only thing keeping me from being a mother, maybe this marriage is not worth it. Has anyone else experienced anything like this? I'd appreciate any advice as I'm so devastatingly depressed.

[AzooDude]

Hi, Shanno!

Everything I'm about to share comes with the usual disclaimer that everyone's circumstances are unique to them and what works for some may not work for others, so I don't consider any of my own opinions to be more authoritative or correct than whatever you and/or DH think.

My DW is Kate, a.k.a. "Kathelen" around these forums. Our infertility journey began with us knowing I was azoospermic, but no reasons to suspect any issues w/ her except that she was in her late 30's. When we first consulted with an RE, all I really wanted to know at that point was the extent of my azoospermia and whether anything could be done about it, so when it came to deciding whether to try to have children, we'd at least better understand what we were dealing with. Instead, the instant assumption as soon as we sat down with that first RE was that our immediate and only goal was to get Kate pregnant. My impression of the RE was that he was in the business of getting women pregnant, and whose sperm got used was of minor importance. He paid lip service to us giving careful consideration to what we wanted to do, but I felt like he barely acknowledged my role in the process and sped right by it on his way to recommending IVF with donor sperm.

I did not object to donor sperm on any general ethical or religious grounds, but it still took me a while to make my peace with it for *us*. It was a complex thing to think and feel my way through, but here's some of what I had to come to terms with:

1. Child by "another man". It may strike you as an ego trip, but this was no trivial thing to me, so I think I at least partly relate to your DH's resistance on this point. I consider myself a rational man, and rationally speaking, this wasn't a very big deal, but for all my fancy thinking, I'm still a man, and my man's instinct strongly objects to another man's sperm having anything to do with my mate. On some primal level, that feels like infidelity. It doesn't help that donor sperm can't be obtained without the donor having an orgasm, which makes it harder to separate the sexual component from the whole process. (Donor eggs don't suffer from that burden, which I think makes for less primal jealousy.) Furthermore, a woman who becomes pregnant "by another woman" (i.e., donor eggs) still gets to carry and be the biological mother. For us men, the genetic and biological components are all tied to the sperm, so they're all or nothing.

Instinctually, I don't think I ever got over this, but at least on this point, I'm more persuaded by reason than instinct. I got over the sexual objection by focusing on the completely non-sexual nature of the actual insemination process, as well as thinking of "donor sperm" as "genetic material", because it just sounds more neutral and acceptable to me. I further reasoned that if I was the attentive husband during my wife's pregnancy, and active father to the child after that, that it would be impossible for me or anyone else to consider this to be "another man's" child.

2. No genetic connection. It may sound the same as #1, but that one was more of a primal sexual thing. This was more about wishing I could pass on family characteristics, and worrying about the consequences of not being able to do so. I only vaguely cared about physical resemblance issues, but I worried about "clicking" with my child the way I feel like I click with my own dad, which has a lot to do with having similar senses of humor and similar ways of thinking. Would my nurture be overwhelmed by his/her nature? What if I didn't feel like the 100% father since it wasn't my genes? Would I still love the child as much (and vice versa) without the genetic connection?

My initial way of dealing with this concern was to consider one of my favorite first cousins as a donor instead of going the anonymous route. This was a cousin who I felt shared some of the family traits I most wished I could pass on (like our family sense of humor), but who I also have infrequent enough contact with that being *too* close shouldn't be a problem. We had extensive discussions about doing it and ultimately decided not to, but that whole process helped me crystallize a lot of thoughts about what mattered to me and what didn't, and by the end I realized the genetic connection had become a lot less important. It never became *un*important, but I decided things like being able to be open with our child about his/her origins were even more important, and all the stuff that would make me the "real" dad would happen regardless of whether or not I had the genetic connection. I got over the "would I love..." concern by thinking about various children in my life (nieces, nephew, friends' kids) who I feel a strong bond with, even where there's no genetic link. Since I can imagine raising any of those kids as my own if tragic circumstances required it, it makes my bonding fear seem unfounded. Besides all that, even a genetic connection is no guarantee of the sort of similarities I happen to share and enjoy with my own father. My sister had the same parents as me, but in some of the ways my dad and I are alike, she's very different, so even with genes in common, it's a crap shoot.

3. "Real" father. Although I have no experience with adoption, I already knew enough about it to appreciate the distinction between "biological" or "genetic" parents and "real" parents, but this distinction got a lot more important to me as I contemplated donor options. It stopped being just about respecting someone else's non-traditional family circumustances, and became the basis for overcoming my other concerns.

Helping with shots; going to dr. appointments; being there for pregnancy tests and ultrasounds; weathering the hormonal storms; going out to buy pickles to satisfy a craving; sharing in the birth; changing diapers; reading bedtime stories; playing catch; feeding ice cream for dinner because Mom is gone; threatening boyfriends; etc... These are the kinds of things that a real dad does. Compare that to the sperm donor's role: donate genetic material. The only ambiguity that exists about who the real father is, comes as a result of the casually imprecise language used by everyday people who usually speak without thinking, as in, "Do you plan on telling him who his real father is?" Tolerating and dealing with such people is a challenge unto itself, but part of making my peace with donor sperm was staking a firm, even jealous claim to the role of "real father".

4. Marginalization. When a doctor (or worse, wife) makes it very clear that they don't need you to get pregnant, and getting pregnant is all that matters...well, that's pretty emasculating. It's already a serious blow to one's manhood to discover that his sperm is defective or missing altogether, so being told to basically watch from the sidelines adds insult to injury. Kate never made me feel that way, but our first RE did.

This wasn't so much an issue that caused me to resist donor sperm, as it was an attitude - whether real or imagined - that just sort of offended me. I haven't consciously devised a plan to fight the feeling of marginalization, but if I look at my behavior, I suppose I've compensated by being extra-involved in everything *but* producing the sperm. We picked our donor(s) together, I've been at every appointment, I gave all the injections, and on and on. I'm sure there are plenty of doting husband-fathers among people with normal fertility, but I still bet that compared to your average normally fertile man, I've been more involved in the whole conception and pregnancy process than most men.

As you probably picked up on by now, we're among the lucky ones who ended up with a and Kate is almost 15 wks. pregnant w/ twins! The ironic twist after all that donor sperm deliberation is that in end, she conceived through IVF with donor *eggs* and my sperm courtesy of micro-TESE surgery. Our first IVF - with donor sperm only - was converted to IUI after Kate was a "poor responder", and with a new RE, we found out Kate had "diminished ovarian reserves". (Gotta love all the ego-building labels infertile people get to carry, eh?) That led us to try with donor eggs, which was a lot easier to accept since we'd already done most of the heavy thinking on donor sperm. We did the donor IVF cycle with donor sperm at the ready because we were only given a 25-30% chance of success with the micro-TESE, but they found some after all. Who knew.

I've shared this all from my perspective in the hopes it might have something in common with what your DH is thinking, but I didn't cope with this stuff or come to these opinions all on my own. Sometimes I needed to contemplate on my own, but there was also a lot of discussion with Kate. I don't know if your DH is the in-touch-with-his-feelings type, but I encourage you to talk this stuff out. Your frustration is understandable, but if you stay stuck in the feeling that all that matters is you getting pregnant and your DH is an impediment to that, that could be trouble. Remember, he has more of a stake in parenthood *with* you than motherhood *for* you. If you reassure him (sincerely) that he is not just an obstacle but a full partner in this big dream of yours, maybe he'll find a way to help achieve it with you.

Good luck with whatever you and DH decide!

-- Dude --

Btw, it's a point that could backfire, but if DH is absolutely against the "child with another man" point, you might ask him how he got over that fact with the eggs you donated in the previous cycle. Genetically speaking, any pregnancy that resulted for the other couple from that would involve your eggs and someone else's sperm, just like it would if you guys use donor sperm. (The potential backfire would be if he hadn't thought about it that way and now has a problem he didn't have before.)

[shannobananno]

Thanks for your kind words. I was just really upset yesterday but what will likely end up happening is us waiting a few years and somehow coming up with the money for adoption. Besides, I got him to at least consider the issue last night. Now his main objection is that he'd feel alienated from the bond I would have with the baby. I need a break from thinking about all of this. Thanks again.

[carabelli]

Thanks for sharing your story! (even though I wasn't the original poster here!) My husband has no sperm issues, but I have egg issues. (high FSH, dimished ovarian reserve) But, he said that if he had sperm issues, he would not want to use donor sperm (I am sure for the reasons you clearly articulated!) I am contemplating donor eggs, and some of your concerns paralleled mine.

But, you seem to be an intelligent, thoughtful man who will make an excellent father regardless of the genetics. But, I'm glad your sperm was used!

Good luck to you!

[AzooDude]

Thanks, I'm glad the story resonated with you. I know deciding to use donor eggs isn't the same as donor sperm, but it's not entirely different, either. I think that more often than not, it's the person who can't provide their own genes to the mix that struggles more with the decision, because it's their parental identity that's most affected. I wish you and DH well however you decide to proceed. If you care to come back and eventually share how you came to that decision, whatever it is, I bet I won't be the only person interested to read it.

[th54]

Shanno-

My DH & I tried 2 IVF cycles with his sperm to no avail. As AzooDude indicated, it was shocking how quickly the RE went straight to DS. While he was very nice about it, it was something we definitely needed to come to terms with. We have since decided to use DS and have tried with 4 IUI cycles (3 natural, 1 w/ Clomid). No BFP yet, but we're hoping soon.

I don't have much advise on convincing your DH, but I can at least recount how we came about the decision. Neither of us were interested in DS AT ALL-- until we had tried & failed with my DH's sperm (16 TESE shots & all he got was 10 immotile sperm--OUCH!). Perhaps it was the thought of undergoing TESE again, but my DH was fairly quick to say he'd be willing to investigate using a donor. I was more hesitant, but warmed to the idea after reading a lot of books & doing some research on donors.

If you still have an inkling to try DS, I would suggest the following:

1. Xytex offers full viewing of donor profiles for $120 for 3 months. You'll find this is much cheaper than some other banks and allows you to get a feel in a short amount of time. My DH & I are very research-minded so it was very helpful for us to try it on for size. Then we found a guy who looked a lot like my DH and was just the right personality and at that point both of us knew we'd be OK with it. But, that was after months of looking at lots of banks and sort of getting used to the idea. I was much like your DH at first, but once I got to know the details of it, it became a lot less personal and a lot more like getting a kidney from a donor list.

2. Infertility Counseling. We actually were required to do this before they'd let us use DS and we were NOT looking forward to it, but we would swear by it now! It allowed us to get out our concerns and hear what other people did in our situation. I walked away from that meeting knowing what I really wanted and knowing that my DH & I were making the decision together.

Using DS is a weird concept and all the things AzooDude pointed out and all the things your DH is feeling-- there's no denying that. But, we finally determined that DS was the best option based on these thoughts:

1. Cost-- it's certainly cheaper than adoption and more in our control. And, as you pointed out, IUI is a heck of a lot easier than IVF!

2. Genetic Input-- although we were both sad about not having my DH's genetic input, we'd have zero input in adoption. At least with DS, we have 50%.

Anyway, I hope this can help you in some way. I wish you all the best on your journey.

[AMA]

Hi Shanno,

I noticed you said your husband "has low count and motility" not "no count". My husband had the same thing. Through talking to our RE and two other doctors, he made some changes and sure enough his levels rose to normal (on the low side) levels...he stopped keeping his cell phone in his pants pocket for about 8 months and was on high dosage antioxidants and vitamins. There's a book called the "infertility cure" that lists all of them and their office was kind enough to email me back when I had questions. Tru-OPC's were an important antioxidant, but there was a huge list. Poor DH took tons of pills every day (morning and night). We also did 1/2 ICSI and 1/2 "natural" when it came time to fertilization.

Hope this helps. Good luck to you!

[tamtam]

i know I am late to chime in, but wanted to add a bit of our story. DH had low sperm count and then none after a few years. He did not work to do the tese before we had to do the IVF.. i guess he did not hwant to hear that there was nothing so he avoided the issue all together. We chose my bff as a backup in case dh had none. He and DH look a lot alike (check out avatar) DHs issus was about real father issue also. I told him. He is the dad b/c it is the dad who takes me through the ivf, sat w/ me thru the m/c and 3 d&c's. He is the one who worked w/ me thru the first abruption and stuff like that. It is the person who takes me to the hospital and worries with me.