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  #211 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2009, 06:57 AM
SweetPrincessLauren's Avatar
SweetPrincessLauren SweetPrincessLauren is offline
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 206
Holdon2hope & Zondery!

2WW May/June Transfers-Beta Dates

6/9
Jessica (JDG7141): ET 5/27; 2 Embies;
tshoshino (Tracy): ET 5/28;
Harpjs (Stephanie):
ET 6/3; 2 Embies

6/10
Sparkly:
ET 6/1; 2 blasts
jaslin: ET 5/30; 2 (6 cell & 4 cell)

6/11
Danigrl (Dani): ET 5/31; 5 Embies
lcantore(Lourdes): ET 5/31; 2 Blasts
Zondery(Suzan): ET 5/31; 4 embies (3dt)

6/12
The Bunn (Amy): ET 6/1; 2 Embies, 1 Blast;

6/14
Bridge2Baby (Bridget): ET 6/3; 2 Embies;

6/15
bepositive: ET 6/2; 2 blasts;
Emmysmom: ET 6/3; 2 embies;
numeria (Jess) ET 5/30; 3 embies;
ablessing ET 6/2; 2 embies
Janeen ET 6/6; 2 blasts


6/17
Brooklyn: ET 6/8; 1 blast 1 morula

Holdon2hope: ET 6/4; 2 blasts

6/18
HopefulLB: ET 6/2; 3 Blasts;
SweetPrincessLauren (Lauren):
ET 6/5; 1 embie
Skogies: ET 6/6; 2 embies
rachelannsauer: ET 6/7, 2 Blasts

6/19
Maggsfinn (Tracy): ET 6/5; 3 Embies


6/20
GoldenHicks (Carrie):ET 6/8; 2 Embies
__________________
Lauren
(Me) 32: Possible Poor Egg Quality
DH 37: Low everything!
TTC #1 Since Jan 2006
May/June 2009 - IVF #1 - Poor/Slow response, Poor fertilization,
July 4th, 2009 - Unmedicated IUI (Ovidril Trigger): Just to pass the time while we wait to start IVF #2
Aug 2009 - IVF Take 2
  • ER 8/24: 12 Eggs! 5 Fertilized!
  • ET 8/27 2 Embies 7 cell & 8 cell ; 3 Frosties
  • 9/10 Beta!
Trying again in 2010.
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  #212 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2009, 07:46 AM
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SweetPrincessLauren SweetPrincessLauren is offline
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 206
Jessica, Tracy amd Sparkly Congrats!

Stephanie, Good luck with Beta #2 today. My dr does the same thing it so frustrating but I guess they are just making sure its doubling and don't want to tell you too soon! But still if you have a really high number I wish they would tell you, there's a good chance you are!



Dani, Lourdes, and Suzan Good luck today.

AFM, I went to have my Progesterone level checked this am. They will only call if there is something wrong and then they will call by 2pm. So my level is good and I don't hear from them. It's officially 1 week til my beta. I actually have 2 one on the 16th where they don't tell you he number then on the 18th to see if it doubled and then they tell you! Thank goodness the weekend is coming up, that always goes by too fast so I guess before I know it, Thursday will be here! So till then I'll keep running to the bathroom hoping to see some implantation bleeding!!! Have a good day everyone.
__________________
Lauren
(Me) 32: Possible Poor Egg Quality
DH 37: Low everything!
TTC #1 Since Jan 2006
May/June 2009 - IVF #1 - Poor/Slow response, Poor fertilization,
July 4th, 2009 - Unmedicated IUI (Ovidril Trigger): Just to pass the time while we wait to start IVF #2
Aug 2009 - IVF Take 2
  • ER 8/24: 12 Eggs! 5 Fertilized!
  • ET 8/27 2 Embies 7 cell & 8 cell ; 3 Frosties
  • 9/10 Beta!
Trying again in 2010.
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  #213 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2009, 08:04 AM
SweetPrincessLauren's Avatar
SweetPrincessLauren SweetPrincessLauren is offline
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcantore
Sparkly-So happy for you!!!!

Jaslin-I hope all is ok, I am anxiously awaiting your results

Stephanie-did you get your results? I you get the call for your beta and it is a

DaniGrl-our turn tomorrow.

AFM-I'm super scared today. I was nauseated all morning, then mid morning I started getting sharp cramps in the lower belly area. This afternoon I had a little white sticky discharge (it feels like I'm getting my period soon-sorry if this is TMI). Any advice? Should I read this as a good sign or bad one? I'm especially scared because tomorrow is the beta and I don't want to hear and then find out the worst 2-3 days later.

I've heard of women going through IVF and they think they are getting full on only to get a . Don't read into the symptons too much! for you!
__________________
Lauren
(Me) 32: Possible Poor Egg Quality
DH 37: Low everything!
TTC #1 Since Jan 2006
May/June 2009 - IVF #1 - Poor/Slow response, Poor fertilization,
July 4th, 2009 - Unmedicated IUI (Ovidril Trigger): Just to pass the time while we wait to start IVF #2
Aug 2009 - IVF Take 2
  • ER 8/24: 12 Eggs! 5 Fertilized!
  • ET 8/27 2 Embies 7 cell & 8 cell ; 3 Frosties
  • 9/10 Beta!
Trying again in 2010.
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  #214 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2009, 08:41 AM
bridge2baby's Avatar
bridge2baby bridge2baby is offline
Bridget
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 156
Breakdown

Hi ladies,

I had a bit of a breakdown last night after I found out that none of my embies made it to freeze. I am having no symptoms and I just feel so down about it. I'm trying to remain positive, but it is so hard.

I am so emotionally exhausted. I feel very fragile right now.

I have so much to be thankful for, and I keep trying to remind myself. But how long can this go on? It's not that I even mind the injections and weight gain, it's more that I am just emotionally exhausted every time I hear that I'm not pregnant again.

I need some inspiration and perspective.
__________________
[font=Georgia]
Bridget
Me: 35/FSH 9-9.9, borderline FSH & slow responder, Mild blood clotting disorder (elevated levels of anticardiolipins and antiphosphatidylserine and Factor V heterozygous)
DH: 35
TTC June 2007

#1 IUI w/Clomid: October 2008
m/c
#2 & 3 IUI w/Clomid: December 08 & January 09: bfn

#1 IVF (March/April)
3/13 Lupron protocol w/Gonal-F & Menopur
ER: 10 eggs 8 of the 10 fertilized. (9 ICSI'd)
ET: 2 day 5 blastos.
BETA = bfn

IVF #2
4/23: BCP protocol & Gonal-F, Menopur, Ganirelix
ER: 10 retrieved, 9 icsi'd, 7 embies!!!
ET 2 8-cell embies! (lining at 10mm)
Beta 1: 55.2, 78, 79.5, 41 m/c 5w5d

IVF #3 October 2009
Microdose Lupron protocol along with 3 months of:
royal jelly, maca, coq10, l-arginine, & prenatal -- made all the difference
ER: 14 retrieved; 12 fert; 10 made it
ET: 3 day 5 blasts
Beta 1: 242
Beta 2: 492
U/s 1: 5 weeks - saw 2 little beans!
Praying they stay with us!!!
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  #215 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2009, 09:07 AM
cagirl2003 cagirl2003 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 643
aww bridget i know this 2ww is so rough...

and not just that, but the entire process.

think of it this way...you transfer 2 PERFECT embryos!!!! TWO! you have an amazing chance.

hang in there...you'll have your bfp soon!!!
__________________
ivf #1 - failed antagonist protocol.

ivf #2 - canceled...formed first cyst.

ivf #3 (technically) - transferred 4, low quality embryos. none made it to freeze. beta is 9/14. failed.

ivf #4 - estimated ER 11/25 or 11/26. antagonist.
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  #216 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2009, 11:14 AM
jaslin jaslin is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 13
Devastated and Lost

Hello ladies,

I wished I had better news to report. I got my offical yesterday. It was so hard to call DH right after and report the bad news. I don't know what is the saddest part of the whole IVF/Neg. All I know is that right now so many questions are going on in my mind. The biggest of them remains whether or not I will be pregnant.
I don't know if the saddest part is, that I got a BFN or that I got transferred 2 weak, less than 8 cells embryos. My RE was very optimistic we would be transferring blasts. Because all test results indicated a good chance (FSH 7, e2 49 & my lining was 12 mm). I don't have any known issues. I'm trying to find answers why my eggs didn't develop better, when I don't have an egg issue. And whether or not I was put on a wrong protocol (micro dose lupron). Also my leading follicle was 24 mm. Isn't that too mature?
I would appreciate your ideas and shared thoughts. Sometimes I feel you ladies know so much more than the Drs.
Nonetheless, I am so glad to hear of your . It gives me so much hope and strenght at the same time. You all are so awesome. I am so glad to have found you.
@ Lauren, Stephanie & Bridget: Thank you for your nice words.
@Rachelansauer: Thank you so much. I live in San Jose/Ca. But I will check out the clinic you recommended. Thanx.
__________________
Me: 37 Hypothyroid, Bad eggs
DH: 39 bad sperms
TTC: 3 Years
1st IVF:
May09: 8 Eggs retrieved, 6 mature, 2 fertilized (1 6 cell & 1 4 cell)
2nd IVF: September/October
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  #217 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2009, 11:33 AM
ablessing's Avatar
ablessing ablessing is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by emmysmom
So it's 6 am here, and I just POAS (just a regular first response today, no digital nonsense) and it came up as well! The second line is still faint, but it is clearly there and it didn't take very long to show up.

However I really need to start taking my colace daily, because I just had some wicked constipation pains, and pains during pooping (I know TMI). Why does colace have to taste so disgusting? I wasn't able to find colace in pill form, so I bought the liquid that you add to drinks (gross).

Good luck to the beta ladies today, hoping to hear some good news from you all

Congrats to you
__________________
KWC aka ablessing

I got my tubes tied in 2005 and feel absolutely dumb for doing that dont know what I was thinking.

In 2002 I gave birth to s stillborn baby at 32 weeks and I think that had alot to do with it.

IVF started in May
ER May 30th 11 eggs, 8 fert, 1 thrown away, 5 frozen
ET June 2, 2 transferred 3dt, 4 cell and 6 cell
HPT 7,8,9,11,13dp3dt
6/15 Beta 1 - beta 357, E2 107, Progest 83
6/17 Beta 2 - beta 1,814 E2 127, Pro 70
6/17 U/S showed 2 sacs
6/22 U/S showed one gestational sac and yolk sac
6/22 Beta 3 - beta 10,723 E2 230, Pro 55.3
6/30 U/S saw baby and heartbeat 122
8/4/09 U/S test for down syndrome. baby measures 12 weeks and ahead of schedule
9/21/09 anatomy scan
12/10/09 OB/GYN appt.
11/20/09 3D u/s appt.
EDD 2/20/10
Its a GIRL!!!!!!!









http://t-shirts.cafepress.com/expect...lothing?page=1
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  #218 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2009, 11:37 AM
ablessing's Avatar
ablessing ablessing is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaslin
Hello ladies,

I wished I had better news to report. I got my offical yesterday. It was so hard to call DH right after and report the bad news. I don't know what is the saddest part of the whole IVF/Neg. All I know is that right now so many questions are going on in my mind. The biggest of them remains whether or not I will be pregnant.
I don't know if the saddest part is, that I got a BFN or that I got transferred 2 weak, less than 8 cells embryos. My RE was very optimistic we would be transferring blasts. Because all test results indicated a good chance (FSH 7, e2 49 & my lining was 12 mm). I don't have any known issues. I'm trying to find answers why my eggs didn't develop better, when I don't have an egg issue. And whether or not I was put on a wrong protocol (micro dose lupron). Also my leading follicle was 24 mm. Isn't that too mature?
I would appreciate your ideas and shared thoughts. Sometimes I feel you ladies know so much more than the Drs.
Nonetheless, I am so glad to hear of your . It gives me so much hope and strenght at the same time. You all are so awesome. I am so glad to have found you.
@ Lauren, Stephanie & Bridget: Thank you for your nice words.
@Rachelansauer: Thank you so much. I live in San Jose/Ca. But I will check out the clinic you recommended. Thanx.

So sorry to hear your news.
__________________
KWC aka ablessing

I got my tubes tied in 2005 and feel absolutely dumb for doing that dont know what I was thinking.

In 2002 I gave birth to s stillborn baby at 32 weeks and I think that had alot to do with it.

IVF started in May
ER May 30th 11 eggs, 8 fert, 1 thrown away, 5 frozen
ET June 2, 2 transferred 3dt, 4 cell and 6 cell
HPT 7,8,9,11,13dp3dt
6/15 Beta 1 - beta 357, E2 107, Progest 83
6/17 Beta 2 - beta 1,814 E2 127, Pro 70
6/17 U/S showed 2 sacs
6/22 U/S showed one gestational sac and yolk sac
6/22 Beta 3 - beta 10,723 E2 230, Pro 55.3
6/30 U/S saw baby and heartbeat 122
8/4/09 U/S test for down syndrome. baby measures 12 weeks and ahead of schedule
9/21/09 anatomy scan
12/10/09 OB/GYN appt.
11/20/09 3D u/s appt.
EDD 2/20/10
Its a GIRL!!!!!!!









http://t-shirts.cafepress.com/expect...lothing?page=1
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  #219 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2009, 11:38 AM
ablessing's Avatar
ablessing ablessing is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 480
I tested again this morning with the rapid result and got a again. The line is getting darker also then it was the previous days. Hope my beta backs all the HPT up!!!
__________________
KWC aka ablessing

I got my tubes tied in 2005 and feel absolutely dumb for doing that dont know what I was thinking.

In 2002 I gave birth to s stillborn baby at 32 weeks and I think that had alot to do with it.

IVF started in May
ER May 30th 11 eggs, 8 fert, 1 thrown away, 5 frozen
ET June 2, 2 transferred 3dt, 4 cell and 6 cell
HPT 7,8,9,11,13dp3dt
6/15 Beta 1 - beta 357, E2 107, Progest 83
6/17 Beta 2 - beta 1,814 E2 127, Pro 70
6/17 U/S showed 2 sacs
6/22 U/S showed one gestational sac and yolk sac
6/22 Beta 3 - beta 10,723 E2 230, Pro 55.3
6/30 U/S saw baby and heartbeat 122
8/4/09 U/S test for down syndrome. baby measures 12 weeks and ahead of schedule
9/21/09 anatomy scan
12/10/09 OB/GYN appt.
11/20/09 3D u/s appt.
EDD 2/20/10
Its a GIRL!!!!!!!









http://t-shirts.cafepress.com/expect...lothing?page=1
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  #220 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2009, 11:56 AM
jak40's Avatar
jak40 jak40 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 190
Hi Everyone,

I am also in my 2ww. I just had a 3 day transfer on 6/8. My beta isnt until 6/20. I have been cramping non stop since the transfer and have an intense lower back ache. To the point it wakes me up at night as I cant get comfortable. Anyone else have this back ache issue?
__________________
Me (42)-tubal ligation done in '94
DH (36) -fine
DD-21 DS-18 DS-14
4/08 - IVF#1 (2) 3day 8-cell embryos
6/08 - FET#1 (3) 3day 8-cell embryos
6/09 - DE/IVF - (2) 3day 7-cell embryos
11/09 - New fertility clinic-chose donor
ER/ET in early to mid Jan '10
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  #221 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2009, 12:29 PM
emmysmom emmysmom is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by jak40
Hi Everyone,

I am also in my 2ww. I just had a 3 day transfer on 6/8. My beta isnt until 6/20. I have been cramping non stop since the transfer and have an intense lower back ache. To the point it wakes me up at night as I cant get comfortable. Anyone else have this back ache issue?

I was crampy and had lower back pain as well. I also found that if I woke in the night it was hard to get comfortable. The cramping just stopped a few days ago. The back ache comes and goes still though.
__________________
MD aka Emmysmom

Me 26-No tubes
DH 33-Perfect

DD -2004

Ectopic- June 2003
Ectopic- May 2008
Ectopic- Aug 2008

TTC since May 2005

ER-May 31/09
ET-June 3/09

1st Beta June 15th-106
2nd beta June 17-227
1st U/S July 15- 1 Perfect little bean 143 bmp

Anatomy Scan 9/23- It's another girl!

EDD- 2/20/2010



Make a pregnancy ticker
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  #222 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2009, 12:32 PM
rachelannsauer's Avatar
rachelannsauer rachelannsauer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaslin
Hello ladies,

I wished I had better news to report. I got my offical yesterday. It was so hard to call DH right after and report the bad news. I don't know what is the saddest part of the whole IVF/Neg. All I know is that right now so many questions are going on in my mind. The biggest of them remains whether or not I will be pregnant.
I don't know if the saddest part is, that I got a BFN or that I got transferred 2 weak, less than 8 cells embryos. My RE was very optimistic we would be transferring blasts. Because all test results indicated a good chance (FSH 7, e2 49 & my lining was 12 mm). I don't have any known issues. I'm trying to find answers why my eggs didn't develop better, when I don't have an egg issue. And whether or not I was put on a wrong protocol (micro dose lupron). Also my leading follicle was 24 mm. Isn't that too mature?
I would appreciate your ideas and shared thoughts. Sometimes I feel you ladies know so much more than the Drs.
Nonetheless, I am so glad to hear of your . It gives me so much hope and strenght at the same time. You all are so awesome. I am so glad to have found you.
@ Lauren, Stephanie & Bridget: Thank you for your nice words.
@Rachelansauer: Thank you so much. I live in San Jose/Ca. But I will check out the clinic you recommended. Thanx.
Jaslin-

I'm so sorry. I wish I knew what to say. I'm sorry you had to call you DH with that call. I remember how had it was to call mine when I was losing the pregnancy during my FET. My heart hurts for all of us that have to go through this dissapointment. I think when you have your next consult with your RE you will learn a lot and I pray you feel comfortable with his/her explanation and can try again soon.

Sincerely,
Rachel
__________________
Me- 28 (PCOS, mild Endo)
Husband 28 (perfect)
TTC- 2 1/2 YEARS

-RE # 1- April 2008
-2 IUI, 1 Clomid cycle and 1 Injectibles.
-July 2008- Changed RE's
- Sept 2008- new RE. LOVE HIM!!!!
IVF # 1, Nov 2008
- 24 Egg's retrieved
- 20 fert.
- Cycle canceled due to OHSS
- 8 Blasts Frozen
FET
April 09- Transfered 3 blasts, quality just okay, no frozen's left
April 21- Postive Beta, finally! 62
April- 24 Beta # 2, 151, barely doubling
April 27 Beta # 3- Losing baby, Beta 31.
IVF # 2, May/June 2009
ER- 21 retrevied ,14 Fertilized Normally
ET- 2 blasts, 2 blasts left to freeze
June 18, Beta #1 , 41, Progestrone 5
June 22, losing baby Beta 20
IVF # 3 Sept/Oct 2009
ER 9/30- 16 retrevied, 12 Fertiltized Normally
ET 10/05- Transferred 2 blasts
Beta 10/16240, progestrone 50
Beta # 2, 10/19, 524
Beta # 3, 10/21, 925
First ultrasound 10/23- saw a little black blob!
Ultrasound # 2 10/30- saw a little heart beating! Thank you Jesus!
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  #223 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2009, 01:05 PM
chitowngal chitowngal is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 5
Joining in late

Hello, everyone. I also have my first beta on Monday, June 15th, so I thought I would join this group while I wait for the official news. Monday seems like an eternity!! I am 9dp3dt, and got my first ever BFP starting on 7dp3dt. I am just praying that nothing changes. I think I have taken 7 tests so far. Is it normal to keep testing every day or am I crazy??Every cramp I am wondering is this good or bad? Every time I go to the bathroom I pray that AF doesn't show up. No preggo symptoms to speak of - no sore boobs, no nausea, no constipation since ET. Actually, I mostly have a lot of diarrhea! (TMI).
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  #224 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2009, 01:24 PM
ablessing's Avatar
ablessing ablessing is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 480
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by chitowngal
Hello, everyone. I also have my first beta on Monday, June 15th, so I thought I would join this group while I wait for the official news. Monday seems like an eternity!! I am 9dp3dt, and got my first ever BFP starting on 7dp3dt. I am just praying that nothing changes. I think I have taken 7 tests so far. Is it normal to keep testing every day or am I crazy??Every cramp I am wondering is this good or bad? Every time I go to the bathroom I pray that AF doesn't show up. No preggo symptoms to speak of - no sore boobs, no nausea, no constipation since ET. Actually, I mostly have a lot of diarrhea! (TMI).

Well if your crazy for taking test after test I guess I am also. I am also 9dp3dt and have had a since 7dp3dt. I also have my beta on Monday. I have been tired all day and feeling bloated.
__________________
KWC aka ablessing

I got my tubes tied in 2005 and feel absolutely dumb for doing that dont know what I was thinking.

In 2002 I gave birth to s stillborn baby at 32 weeks and I think that had alot to do with it.

IVF started in May
ER May 30th 11 eggs, 8 fert, 1 thrown away, 5 frozen
ET June 2, 2 transferred 3dt, 4 cell and 6 cell
HPT 7,8,9,11,13dp3dt
6/15 Beta 1 - beta 357, E2 107, Progest 83
6/17 Beta 2 - beta 1,814 E2 127, Pro 70
6/17 U/S showed 2 sacs
6/22 U/S showed one gestational sac and yolk sac
6/22 Beta 3 - beta 10,723 E2 230, Pro 55.3
6/30 U/S saw baby and heartbeat 122
8/4/09 U/S test for down syndrome. baby measures 12 weeks and ahead of schedule
9/21/09 anatomy scan
12/10/09 OB/GYN appt.
11/20/09 3D u/s appt.
EDD 2/20/10
Its a GIRL!!!!!!!









http://t-shirts.cafepress.com/expect...lothing?page=1
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  #225 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2009, 01:27 PM
harpjs's Avatar
harpjs harpjs is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 466
Hello everyone! I got my beta results but wanted to wait until DH knew before I told anyone else. Tuesday's was 17 and today's was 50! It more than doubled so I am officially ! We are so excited! It makes sense that my hpt was not very dark because I am just barely there. I think and hope that it is because they did my beta so early. 6dp5dt and 8dp5dt. What do you guys think? How many days past transfer are your betas? We go for our first US Monday the 22nd! I can't wait to find out how many peanuts I have and to find out if everything is okay.
__________________
Stephanie
Me (26) Unexplained IF
DH (27) Great

05/08 to 11/08- TTC naturally, irregular cycles
2 rounds clomid 50 & 100 mg and cenestin, no response
3/9/09- first RE appointment
4/6/09- Laparoscopy- Everything looks great

May 09- first IVF cycle (low stim) Lupron, Dex, Bravelle, Menopur (21 retrieved, 18 mature, 15 fertilized)
5dayET (2 embabies) / 5 made it to freezing
first beta 17
hpt faint
second beta 50 officially a
6/22 US- saw 1 sac in the right place!
6/29 US- at radiology ctr- no h/b
7/6 US- w/ RE- everything is great
7/10 US- w/ OB- measuring small
7/14 US- back to RE- no growth or h/b
7/15 embryoscopy
Betas: 7/24- 1300 checked weekly until 9/9- 3; finally negative

FET Oct 13, 09 Betas: 10/20 (6) 10/22 (7) 10/26 (36) 10/28 (180) 11/2 (1500) ectopic 11/6 (740) 11/13 (?)

first baby, Kenna

sister and cousin (both unmarried and NOT ttc) and SIL got preggo during my *journey* hoping to show them up by having multiples
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