[prince_jolsin]

Who has done this? Just wondering??? Soooo much cheaper!

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by prince_jolsin

Who has done this? Just wondering??? Soooo much cheaper!

It is cheaper, on average, but the success rates are lower, too.

The same technology exists everywhere, but is applied differently. In Europe, most patients have insurance coverage for 6 cycles of IVF, although the insurance companies don't pay all that much for IVF. So there is not as much pressure for high success rates per cycle as there is in the USA, and there is more pressure to keep costs low. Also, because the same state-run insurance pays for the cost of complications during pregnancy and childbirth, and the state sets the rules, there is more emphasis on safety including single embryos transfers.

In the US, IVF is usually an out of pocket experience, so there is much more demand for high success rates. And because the insurance companies that cover pregnancy and childbirth don't make the rules and usually don't cover IVF, there is not much enforcement of single embryo transfer.

Which is better? Depends on one's perspective.

[kokasmom]

I did my very first ivf in Italy back in 2000. There were 29 women in my cycle group. 2 of us got pregnant but I had the only baby. The RE and clinic staff were awesome and I had complete faith in them. Back then I didn't know enough to research success rates or anything else for that matter. So long story short, I did everything they told me to the letter and amazingly enough, it worked.

[kokasmom]

I should have added, I was already living in Italy so I didn't just choose to go there.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by kokasmom

I did my very first ivf in Italy back in 2000. There were 29 women in my cycle group. 2 of us got pregnant but I had the only baby. The RE and clinic staff were awesome and I had complete faith in them. Back then I didn't know enough to research success rates or anything else for that matter. So long story short, I did everything they told me to the letter and amazingly enough, it worked.

Italy has very restrictive laws due to powerful influence from the Catholic church.

They can inseminate only 3 eggs in one cycle, and they must transfer all that survive. They cannot freeze or dispose of embryos except in exceptional cases.

They do not allow donor egg cycles. Italians wanting to use an egg donor typically travel to Spain where they appreciate the extra business.

As can be predicted, the success rates in Italy are low, and they get too many triplets.

They can, however, freeze eggs. Because of the restrictions mentioned above, most of the major publications on egg freezing are from Italy.

[kokasmom]

I don't know the laws now but this was not true in 2000. We had 7 fertilized. We had planned to transfer 4 but on the day of transfer, my RE advised me to only transfer 2 due to the quality (very good). He knew I didn't want multiples, at least not triplets or more. We had 5 embryos that were frozen but later donated. At the time the embryo donation program at my clinic did embryo donations for couples with very specific infertility issues, such as cancer.

I do agree that the success rates for the clinic I used were not great. But I also have to admit that the experience, while quite scary, was wonderful. I was in the military so I couldn't just travel to another clinic. I had to use what was available but it was great. The clinic I used here doesn't have the best rates in the country, but again the RE and staff were amazing. And again, it worked!

But if the question is, would I go to Europe just to have ivf, the answer is no.

Originally Posted by Ghost

Italy has very restrictive laws due to powerful influence from the Catholic church.

They can inseminate only 3 eggs in one cycle, and they must transfer all that survive. They cannot freeze or dispose of embryos except in exceptional cases.

They do not allow donor egg cycles. Italians wanting to use an egg donor typically travel to Spain where they appreciate the extra business.

As can be predicted, the success rates in Italy are low, and they get too many triplets.

They can, however, freeze eggs. Because of the restrictions mentioned above, most of the major publications on egg freezing are from Italy.

[prince_jolsin]

Thank you both for the very informative information.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by kokasmom

I don't know the laws now but this was not true in 2000. We had 7 fertilized. We had planned to transfer 4 but on the day of transfer, my RE advised me to only transfer 2 due to the quality (very good). He knew I didn't want multiples, at least not triplets or more. We had 5 embryos that were frozen but later donated. At the time the embryo donation program at my clinic did embryo donations for couples with very specific infertility issues, such as cancer.

I do agree that the success rates for the clinic I used were not great. But I also have to admit that the experience, while quite scary, was wonderful. I was in the military so I couldn't just travel to another clinic. I had to use what was available but it was great. The clinic I used here doesn't have the best rates in the country, but again the RE and staff were amazing. And again, it worked!

But if the question is, would I go to Europe just to have ivf, the answer is no.

The restrictive law was passed in 2004:

European Society of Gynecology - Law and Ethics in Medically Assisted Reproduction in Italy

There was a recent court decision there that suggests some of the restrictions may have to be thrown out.

[Deker]

I haven't done this myself but I'm seriously considering going to Thailand or Cyprus for IVF or South Africa or Barbados for donated embryos. I don't know anyone IRL who have been sucessful but on Gender Selection Guide there are many ladies who have been sucessful with IVF and PGD in a different country. You can ask them for some advice on clinics. You can also visit JCI Accredited Organizations - Joint Commission International for a entire list of JCI accredited hospitals. The hospital I'm considering is JCI accredited.

Remember this, sucess rates are only a small part of figuring out whether or not the clinic can help you. A clinic in the US with high success rate may only choose people who have not had failed IVF attempts or patients in in their 20s or 30s. Whereas, international hospitals may accept anyone with a uterus! If you have an hour I highly suggest you listen to Fertility Tourism 5/20/2009 - Dawn Davenport on Blog Talk Radio and read Budgeting for Infertility by Angie Best-Boss and Patients Beyond Borders: Everybody's Guide to Affordable, World Class, Medical Travel by Josef Woodman.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Deker

I haven't done this myself but I'm seriously considering going to Thailand or Cyprus for IVF or South Africa or Barbados for donated embryos. I don't know anyone IRL who have been sucessful but on Gender Selection Guide there are many ladies who have been sucessful with IVF and PGD in a different country. You can ask them for some advice on clinics. You can also visit JCI Accredited Organizations - Joint Commission International for a entire list of JCI accredited hospitals. The hospital I'm considering is JCI accredited.

Remember this, sucess rates are only a small part of figuring out whether or not the clinic can help you. A clinic in the US with high success rate may only choose people who have not had failed IVF attempts or patients in in their 20s or 30s. Whereas, international hospitals may accept anyone with a uterus! If you have an hour I highly suggest you listen to Fertility Tourism 5/20/2009 - Dawn Davenport on Blog Talk Radio and read Budgeting for Infertility by Angie Best-Boss and Patients Beyond Borders: Everybody's Guide to Affordable, World Class, Medical Travel by Josef Woodman.

That's an excellent point regarding the success rates. Many clinics screen patients, accepting only those with low FSH and/or few previous failures, in order to inflate their success rates. They persuade the other patients to do egg donation cycles. My clinic takes most anyone with a uterus, and you can cycle with your own eggs if you have at least one antral follicle. FSH=50 is fine. We warn such patients of their low chances, but the choice is theirs. Many strongly prefer a biological child.

But many clinics claim they don't screen patients and that their statistics are straight up, when that is not true at all. It's difficult to know who to trust.

ASRM has issued guidelines saying it is unethical to refuse a patient simply due to poor prognosis. It still happens every day.

One more option you might consider is Reproductive Biology Associates in Atlanta. They have an intriguing business model for their egg donation program. They recruit many donors long before they have identified recipients. They pay well, so they only take excellent donors. They freeze all the eggs from each donor. When a recipient arrives, they are offered a list of existing donors to choose from. Because the donors are all excellent responders, they produce enough eggs for many recipients in each stimulation, drastically cutting the cost of a donor cycle by sharing the cost among multiple recipients. It's an interesting option.

I have no affiliation with them.

But the success rates really are lower in Europe, and this is for reasons other than cheating on the statistics. Medical treatment is a balance of cost, safety, and efficacy. US clinics compete mainly on efficacy, while European clinics give more emphasis to cost and safety. Thus in Europe they tend to have milder stimulations, use less meds, produce fewer embryos, transfer fewer embryos, and have lower live birth rates per cycle and per transfer. For example, for oocyte donor cycles (where patient screening is less relevant), live birth per transfer in Europe was 25-30% in 2005, while it was 50-55% per transfer in the US that year.

[sticktome]

My Dr told me that they do not allow you to see photos of the donors in eastern europe - A friend of mine went to Prague and did embryo transfer for about 4500 including flights and accommodation - her flights were from Ireland.

Anyone got any additional info ? I am on my 4th cycle out of 6 allowed with insurance. I want to use all six tries with my own eggs - I don't know if I can just switch insurance companies and get another 6 tries or if I am cut off ... So Donor may be an option down the road - but I can't afford it here at 15-20k !

[DeannaRN]

I did donor egg IVF in Czech Republic and thought it was a wonderful experience. I am now pregnant with twins and only spent $4500 for a donor cycle there. They screen the donors according to ASRM guidelines and it is all anonymous due to their laws. You can't see any pictures but get some basic info about them. The success rates at the clinic I went to were about 65% for a donor cycle. I'm not sure what it is for own eggs but many women go there to use own eggs too and I know many who have been successful with that. It's definitely an excellent option if you can't afford it here. We got a wonderful vacation out of it too which helped with the stress of IVF. You almost forget why you are there when you are having so much fun traveling and exploring Eastern Europe.