Did any of you happen to see tonight's show? There was a couple who had been trying for 5 years, and teh woman admitted being diagnosed with endometriosis when she was 17. She had always known that she might never conceive. They already had one failed IVF, and their marriage was now on the line financially. He wanted to pay off the car payments before shelling out another 20K for IVF. Dr. Phil had talked to the couple about compromise, and then offered them the gift of IVF at a facility, which guarantees pregnancy or 100% refund. I thought it was so generous, and of course I was bawling.

I guess it just made me think that although we are adopting, and I am so excited about the journey we are on, it still makes me sad to know that I'll never be able to feel pregnancy, kicks in the belly, nursing, cradling a newborn. After 3 (and a 4th suspected) miscarriages, I just have zero faith in my body. We had never even once considered infant adoption. It just felt right for us to adopt older children who need a forever home. Oh well, I guess it just make me reflect more on the grieving process and accepting what the cards of life were dealt to me.

I wanted to say that I'm sorry for your recent loss. I can only imagine how difficult this has been.

I do have a question about the fertility center. Does the facility guarantee a successful pregnancy (with a baby in the end) or just a pregnancy? As you know, there's a difference.

Back in the days when we didn't want kids, I used to say that I wouldn't mind being pregnant for the experience -- I just didn't want the child in the end. Funny, once we made the decision to become parents, I felt exactly the opposite. Trying to get pregnant and being pregnant seemed frought with danger, uncertainity and heartache. We chose not to even try, opting for the sure thing of adoption.

Sharon-
I have followed a lot of your posts in this forum - I was so sad to read of your recent setback yesterday on the other thread. I know for us, even though we really feel we are meant to adopt, it I still have twinges of pain from not giving birth. It has gotten easier but this month we had 6 babies born to friends and my co-workers - so that has been really difficult - it is hard to be the good friend sometimes and ask how the babies are doing because sometimes I just can't handle hearing it. I try to refocus on the good things in my life and that helps - everyone has problems and infertility is ours. Another close friend is going through a bitter divorce but has a beautiful child - I think well at least I have my husband to help get through this. I also think that once the adoption is final that will ease a lot of the pains as well, but I don't expect that they will every completely go away.

As hard as it is I think it is good for us to go through all these things before I child is here - then we will be better prepared to be a good parent and help us teach our children that just because things don't turn out as you plan that your life can't be great. Hang in there!
Karen

Thank you to spaypets & Karen for your kind words. I love this particular forum so much becasue we can all relate. We might all come from totally different backgrounds and experiences, but we all seem to just mesh well on this board.

Spaypets- the facility onthe show that Dr. Phill mentioned was called "Shady ____?" Shady Farms, Shady Brooks....I can't quite remember. And I want to think it's in Illinois or Indiana. But I bet the info is on his web page. Through my tears, I remember saying that the facility promised pregnancy, and of course there is a huge difference between pregnancy & baby! But I could be wrong. But the facility did say that money would be returned so that if the couple decided on aodption, the fees would be available.

Karen- I understand about trying hard ot be a good friend when everyone else has their babies. I've been there too! In fact, last year I tried to hide my jealous emotions by hosting a baby shower for a co-worker last year. And you are so 100% right by saying everyone has problems- infertility just happens to be ours. That is the only major problem we are encoutnering, so in comparison with everyone else, I guess it's not too bad!

"So can we stop ultimatums and stop pressuring each other and work to make this happen?" Dr. Phil asks Lesley and Jeff. When they agree, he surprises them by explaining that the show has arranged for them to visit Shady Grove Fertility (www.shadygrovefertility.com) to begin their fertility process, all expenses paid.

Dr. Phil tells Lesley and Jeff that Shady Grove Fertility is offering this program for infertile couples with financial needs. He also explains that under the center's shared-risk program, couples will receive four chances to become pregnant. If they still haven't conceived at the end of that time, they will be given a full refund. "The whole idea is if you don't become fertile, you get the $20,000 back to spend on alternative things like adoption," he says.

My wife and I went through infertility (but not IVF) and adoption, and have a beautiful boy from the latter. Due to the fact that our adoption was contested, we ended up spending significantly more than any IVF process would have cost. Otherwise, our costs would have been roughly half those of IVF.

This isn't going to win me any brownie points, but ...

Frankly, I am offended by people who are determined to carry on their own biological line regardless of the expense involved. They are obsessive and irresponsible to the point of self-destruction. I'm not talking about those who give IVF a try because they've tried everything else, just to see if it will work. I'm talking about those who try it over and over again out of desperation. There is a lot of money wasted on IVF attempts that could be better used to help children who are already here and in need of parents. It is also emotionally unhealthy to view IVF as the ultimate answer to infertility and to attempt it repeatedly because of that view. It is not a guarantee of conception and even less a guarantee of an uncomplicated full term pregnancy.

We brought our son home from the hospital, just as if we had delivered him. The bonding, that we had been told would take some time, was virtually instantaneous. It made no difference at all that we did not conceive and carry him.

There must come a point at which the pursuit of a pregnancy must be weighed against the costs involved. The "gift" given to this couple would have been much better spent on intensive family therapy possibly leading to the initiation of an adoption process. Instead, they've been given a free roll of the biological dice without addressing their existing issues. What happens to them if this IVF attempt fails?

Originally posted by KiltedAPOI
This isn't going to win me any brownie points, but ...

Frankly, I am offended by people who are determined to carry on their own biological line regardless of the expense involved. They are obsessive and irresponsible to the point of self-destruction. I'm not talking about those who give IVF a try because they've tried everything else, just to see if it will work. I'm talking about those who try it over and over again out of desperation. There is a lot of money wasted on IVF attempts that could be better used to help children who are already here and in need of parents. It is also emotionally unhealthy to view IVF as the ultimate answer to infertility and to attempt it repeatedly because of that view. It is not a guarantee of conception and even less a guarantee of an uncomplicated full term pregnancy.

We brought our son home from the hospital, just as if we had delivered him. The bonding, that we had been told would take some time, was virtually instantaneous. It made no difference at all that we did not conceive and carry him.

Well, I will agree with you that you won't win any brownie points from me. But, as a public forum, I do respect your right to post your opinion.

What I find troubling with your statement is the way you generalized everyone as obsessive and irresponsible if they chose many expensive IVF attempts, regardless of how any times it fails. Women go into the IVF procedures fully aware of risks being taken at each attempt. Desperate or not, if she or the couple are willing to go through this then how about being a bit more supportive? Maybe on the 4th or 5th time there will be a success.

And yes, there is the biological componenent. For many women, it is a matter of the experience of being pregnant, labor, delivery, nursing, bonding, closeness. It's a feeling of seeing & hearing a heartbeat on an ultrasound monitor and feeling baby kicks.
For some women, adoption is something that would not even be a consideration, as I know quite a few couples who have decided to remain childless.

If you have been denied the opportunity to experience all this due to infertility and/or chronic miscarriages, you possible cannot imagine how it feels from a women's point of view. I'm sure you are the most caring, loving, and supportive husband, as most of our husbands are to us. But the bottom line is that NONE of this is happening to YOUR body. It's a sad reality of how a woman feels in going through infertility. To sum it up- many of us feel like a second rate or worthless failure of a woman because we cannot have a baby.

I am so pleased to hear that you bonded with your child instantly. You are very blessed. Some of us who have/will be adopting older childrne may never get to bond in the proper parent/child relationship. You are very fortunate.

Wow!! You surely have some guts KiltedAPOI. I think it is surely very brave of you to come amoung a bunch of women and say what you said. But like Jade said, you have no idea what it is like for women with infertility. Your a Man. Gee wizz. You have no breasts that will never be used, you have not uterus that is just sitting there in your body. You don't have ovaries and wonder why God gave them to you, they aren't helping you with anything. You have no idea what it feels like to dream your whole life of loving someone so much and then be told that it isn't going to happen because of your body. My dh and I chose not to go any further with the fertility treatments for many reasons, one of which was money, but if that was the only reason, I would have went completely broke if it ment that there might have been a chance of even getting to experience carrying a baby inside of me. I am a women who feels like I was made to have children, since I was a little girl playing house, yet I have none. Yes, one day I will adopt and love that child as much if not more that a bio. baby, but it was not my dream. I can never have that. Again like Jade said you have a right to an opinion, but please don't tell me you didn't expect to get some opinions back at you.

About what Kilted said.

On the one hand, I agree that infertility leads people to act in desperate ways seeking a child that is biologically related to them.

And, though I am an infertile woman, I have never felt betrayed by my body or that my internal organs that make me a woman are somehow wasted. I am more than a baby machine.

But I am acutely aware that my story is not the typical infertility story. Without getting too much into my medical history, I knew of and accepted my infertility long before I wanted children. Indeed, until about 3 years ago I didn't want to be a mother.

So it was easy for me to eschew medical interventions that would have threatened my life (surgery is dangerous), overstimulated my ovaries (it cannot be good for cells to overstimulate them like that--seems like a good way to wind up encouraging cancer) etc. etc. Knowing the facts about my fertility meant that I never got on the rollercoaster, never was tempted to try one more thing. It made it easy for me to continue to say "Selective reduction is wrong" because my goal was to raise a child not bear a child.

It's funny, when I didn't want kids I thought it would be interesting to be pregnant, when I did want to be a mother, pregnancy didn't sound so great. I have fully embraced adoption, I'm thrilled with it. In reality, it was our first choice. Pregnancy would have be our second choice.

Not everyone is cut out to adopt. I would rather have a couple try every technique known to man if they thought for one minute that adoption was a second choice and not quite as good as biology.

Every woman and every couple must come to a place where they find peace with their fertility at their own time. This is such a personal thing.
From my own experience, I had been diagnosed with problems with my reporductive organs since I was in my early twenties, so I always kept adoption in the back of my mind.
After I got married I push hard to try to conceive on our own and went to Dr's after a few months of trying. Slowly trying all different methods that were offered by my ob/gyn, I then moved to a fertility Dr. try medicines, surgeries, etc. Learning about what was happening inside my body was informative and fascinating to me, I did not mind the interventions at all. It was my body after all.
When my Dr, told me that due to tubal issues , IVF would be the only way, I took time ( 3 months) to think it over and althought morally it was not what I wanted ( neither did my church) Dh and I decided to go for it. We put off buying our home for a few months and paid for our own cycle ($8,000) To us at that point it was worth it. I did not wanted to leave any stones unturned, I felt that I could mot move on unless I tried this. Knew my odds were slim ( less than 20%) I had scar tissue, endo,and was 39 years old.
As it turned out our of 5 embryos we put back I took and after a not so great pregnancy I had my daughter. I call it I won the IVF lottery, I know God had a lot to do with that.
Now we want more children but decided that we are done with IVF and are looking to adopt our next child.
Yes I am glad I was able to go through pregnancy, even thought it was not a pleasant experience, it was worth every second. But
I do not feel that I will care for my next child any less than my bio child.
I am sure I would have made peace with the fact that I was not able to have a bio child and move on to adoption just the same. Especially in my case since I did tried it all. But that is just me.

I mean it was my money, I can use it any way I want, if I wanted to waste it or go into debt because I was not ready to come to terms with the fact that it may not happend for me why the heck not? No one has the right to tell me otherwise.
Yes I feel that paying out of pocket for multiple cycles is outrageous but sometimes it takes that to come to terms with your IF. I do wish a lot more people would turn to adoption but that is their loss.

I'm just curious where KiltedAPOI has gone?
He stirred some emotions, and just vanished. Rude, IMO.

And yes I most certainly agree that stopping IF treatments is such a personal decision and each couple has their own limits. And I do admit I spent years obsessing over wanting a baby. I still desire pregnancy; that feeling will never go away from me. But I know that adopting is such a wonderful way to build a family because above anything else, I want to be a mother.

Jade. Exactly Thank You. You say things so much better than I.

I've not disappeared; I simply do not monitor the boards on a daily basis.

The "man vs. woman" aspect of this discussion concerns me just a little. I did not intend, or even anticipate, that slant to this conversation. I don't believe that I've attacked anyone's gender.

What I see is that while my post has generated some responses, no one has answered my question. So I'll ask it again, along with a few more that have come to mind from the various posts.

What happens to this, or any other couple, if they go through all the IVF process and still don't manage to have a child which is biologically theirs? After all, the name of this forum is 'When is Enough, Enough?' At that point, they're back where they started, but potentially in so much debt that they are financially ruined, and unable to take reasonable care of any child they might have had. To make matters worse, they still haven't addressed their underlying issues, such as their anger at their own infertility. Does the marriage even endure?

Let's also remember that women are not the only ones personally subject to infertility. If I'm bound and determined to have a child that is biologically mine, but am unable, what kind of message is it to me if my wife decides that she wants to undergo IUI or IVF with a donor? You see, it CAN happen to MY body. If I can't get a woman pregnant, I can feel every bit as inadequate, broken and worthless as a woman who can't get pregnant feels. Men, in general, are of a mindset to provide. It is just as devastating to us not to be able to give our wives that one thing that they may most want.

I appreciate, far more than you know, how much someone can want to go through the experience of pregnancy. If the experience is the ultimate goal, though, there's a big problem. The commitment continues well after the experience has ended. For those folks who decide to remain childless largely because they can't get pregnant, that's probably a wise choice. spaypets hit the nail squarely on the head about this.

You want an answer to your specific question of "What happens to this, or any other couple, if they go through all the IVF process and still don't manage to have a child which is biologically theirs?"

The answer is: exactly the same thing that would have happened to you if your contested adoption had resulted in the child being sent to live with someone else.

You just pick yourself up, dust yourself off, grieve in your own manner, and go on with life.

There are those who would question people who spend so much money on a court case over a specific child when there are so many others in this world who have no-one, let alone two people fighting over them. They could call those who do that just as obsessive over "a particular child" as you are calling those who attempt IVF repeatedly in hopes of "a biological child".

But it's OK that you chose the best route to parenthood for your own family. We're a free people, entitled to do whatever we wish with our own finances and entitled to do whatever we wish to pursue our own happiness. Whether that means attempting IVF one more time in an attempt to have a biological child, or pursuing litigation in an attempt to keep a specific child in your home does not matter. Each person is responsible for only themselves.

You say:"There is a lot of money wasted on IVF attempts that could be better used to help children who are already here and in need of parents. " And one could easily say that about the mney spent in a fight to keep a particular child who has someone else fighting for the right to raise him. If adults in that situation would let go of that child they would themselves have been available to use their own money to help children who are already here and in need of parents. But it's pretty offensive to think that way, isn't it, when you're the one who has been through it?

Of course you had your own reasons for pursuing that child instead of any other. And you're entitled to them. But your choice of adoption of that specific child for your family does not mean you know what is right for other families.

And remember your successful adoption of that specific child does not guarantee that you will parent that child, and even less does it guarantee that you will have an uneventful 18 years of parenting. But that didn't, and still doesn't, matter to you, right? You will hope and pray that you remain that child's parents long enough to raise him to adulthood, and you will hope the road will be smoother than it has been. But the important thing is that you were given the chance you asked for.

And finally, if you'll forgive another paraphrase, most people realize it is "emotionally unhealthy" to view adoption as the ultimate answer to becoming a parent. Each couple must find their own answer to that issue, and it may well come at a different time and a different way for each. And that's OK.

Very well worded Diane.

I just find it rather appauling that someone should suggest what others should do in terms of their finances and when to end the infertility roller coaster. It is such a personal decision.

So, to answer the question of "what happens"...some couples come closer together, other couples fall apart. Some choose parenthood by adoption, and as you know every kind of adoption is individual and unique. Many go through counseling/therapy to work through their issues, some do not. Many couples are quite capable of raising a child after shelling out big bucks for IF treatments. Any couple pursuing IVF understands the financial aspect of it. So I'm not too sure about the comment of "potentially in so much debt that they are financially ruined, and unable to take reasonable care of any child they might have had."

My original statement of trying to be more supportive still stands.
I could not imagine no support from friends & family through our IF and adoption journey.

And yes, I failed to mention to male factor of poor or no sperm during the IF process. I was writing on my own personal experience and emotions. After all, my husband got me pg 3 times, and all 3 times my body failed me. It was my body that had to have D&Cs- not his.

We all come to this forum for many reasons. I still love this board as a learning experience, as I hope others do as well.